Stage 21: “An Incredible Spectacle – Pogacar Is Beatable After All”

00:00:02: Inside Red Bull Bora Hansgrohe, the OVB online podcast on The Tour de France.

00:00:09: For three weeks we accompanied team manager Ralph Denk and the biggest and most successful German cycling team through The Tour De France.

00:00:18: Do you have questions for Ralph Denke?

00:00:21: Send them to tobias.roof at ovbmedia.de And now enjoy a new episode!

00:00:32: Mathieu van der Poel wins the twenty-first stage of Tour de France, Tadej Pogacar is overall winner for fifth time and Remko Evernepoel confidently secures the podium for Red Bull Borahanskrohem.

00:00:46: What was that?

00:00:47: He wrote to me And now I am going ask him exactly that much more and discuss many things regarding this tour de France.

00:00:57: With that good evening to my cohost Corbinian Sauter.

00:01:01: Hi, Corbinian!

00:01:03: Hello Toby and greetings from Rosenheim.

00:01:06: To Rosenheim?

00:01:07: Yes an unusual constellation.

00:01:09: you will notice.

00:01:09: those of who followed us yesterday after the twentieth stage listened.

00:01:14: it has become a tradition by now.

00:01:16: so Ralph Denk whom you normally hear and expect here, he had an incredible amount on his plate that day in Paris.

00:01:25: Ralph said the sponsors are there ,the partners are there.

00:01:28: family & friends are there.

00:01:30: i hope u all saw what was going on in paris.

00:01:33: today.

00:01:34: we always say hey ralph enjoy it!

00:01:37: There is so much energy.

00:01:39: celebrate with your team and we will leave you alone on Sunday evening.

00:01:44: But, You do not have to miss out the final analysis from Ralph Denk!

00:01:49: We'll record that tomorrow in your feed.

00:01:52: but yes, let's look back at how we both experienced it.

00:01:58: We were able cover it here every day for three weeks now.

00:02:07: You asked me the question.

00:02:08: What was that?

00:02:09: Why don't you start and give the answer yourself?

00:02:12: completely insane, right?

00:02:15: Yes sensational an absolute spectacle.

00:02:20: Well I didn't think it would turn into something like where everything really included...I mean i've never seen Pogaccia push to his limits in a tour for example.

00:02:30: Then a wonder pole who somehow says at the end that he has been focused on this race for A year and since He dropped out last Year even before That And watched The footage then the Sprinters catch up again.

00:02:43: I mean it really It Really had everything?

00:02:45: Then you were there at Montmartre where the fans Were going completely wild Again, she was sitting here a specialist once more and i really enjoyed This final stage.

00:02:56: i don't know how You felt

00:02:57: yes in How Yeah, how fast it all went.

00:03:00: Yes we have now had three weeks.

00:03:02: in effect.

00:03:03: I saw almost every minute of the two difference and that is the usual thing you turn on the television And then a stage begins.

00:03:10: You naturally pick out your points.

00:03:11: yes That's where It becomes extremely important.

00:03:16: And here was a short warm-up, short clips.

00:03:22: The beautiful ones we know from the Champs Elysees which then also represent the recognition of everyone who made it to Paris.

00:03:31: and suddenly there is this group that you naturally saw very early on.

00:03:38: Hey!

00:03:38: Who's planning something today?

00:03:41: And that colleagues Pogacca and Fante Paul have big plans today was absolutely obvious from the first Mon Mardre.

00:03:49: When you see it, I remember last year... ...I was sitting there completely stunned in front of TV thinking... ..."Hey Pogaca!

00:03:58: You're about to win the whole

00:03:59: thing!".

00:04:00: "...and your riding as if you hadn't won anything

00:04:02: yet."

00:04:07: In The Rain As Well.

00:04:08: Yes, brutal.

00:04:09: Brutal!

00:04:09: I mean he doesn't have to take any risks at all.

00:04:12: Del Toro for example his teammate.

00:04:14: He let go right from the start today and said i'm securing the podium here.

00:04:19: No but that's just not possible with Atadeh Pogacar And Evernipool.

00:04:24: um...he tried it too.

00:04:26: That group for a short time Pedersen, Evanipool Wanderpool Pogaca With their backdrops those images in Paris.

00:04:36: Wow, that really did something to me.

00:04:39: and sure how it developed in the end.

00:04:42: Yes if someone had written a script like that we would have said well... We are from The Writing Profession Corpinion.

00:04:50: some of our colleagues would've said come on guys!

00:04:54: That is too much yes.. And then scene at the finish line and Philipsons hand goes up.

00:05:01: I thought huh?

00:05:02: Did Philipson win?

00:05:05: And then it turns out in the end, Philipsson is cheering for van der Poel.

00:05:09: For his teammate which rounds-out the picture again because van der poel was the one who saved the Tour de France from Philipssen.

00:05:16: That would have been a mega disappointing tour of him Because Tim Berlier had absolutely dominated him during the sprint phases.

00:05:24: Yes and if that thing has gone twenty meters longer Van Der Poel wouldn't win.

00:05:29: but hey Yes, I have always liked this print royal in Paris very much and actually secretly.

00:05:39: I kind of wish it was back.

00:05:41: but what am i supposed to say today?

00:05:44: After images like these a stage like this enthusiasm?

00:05:48: no they actually proved me wrong today.

00:05:50: so um...I'm happy to keep it this way.

00:05:53: outstanding

00:05:54: Definitely, especially since we saw that the sprinters aren't without a chance.

00:05:59: If you have a team DeKathlund worked incredibly hard today to get Olaf Koetsch back in.

00:06:05: he ended up fifth so it's not like the teams can come up with a plan.

00:06:10: Max Kanter was still annoyed.

00:06:11: fourth place

00:06:13: Awesome yeah

00:06:14: Yes, incredibly good also.

00:06:17: He rode a super tour.

00:06:18: That has to be mentioned again But that doesn't take anything away from anyone and in return you get a spectacle for the last, yes... thirty-forty minutes.

00:06:27: And not just the last ten seconds with the rest being grand parade.

00:06:31: I understand it's part of this too but i think version like is completely different experience to fans.

00:06:38: Absolutely!

00:06:39: We have to find a different solution for the sprint we talked about during our tour and i've been thinking about it.

00:06:50: So let's see if we can try to figure something out for next year.

00:06:54: Yeah, an awesome end to a Tour de France!

00:06:58: How did you like it overall?

00:07:01: Right well I thought there was a lot in there...I would say We also came up with a little something To look back on specifically.

00:07:10: I think we can go into specific moments again because i think have already talked enough about every single stage.

00:07:17: that is why we prepared five categories so to speak where will go in our personal highlights but had a lot of fun this year with my stages.

00:07:27: definitely

00:07:36: At some points it was too predictable for me.

00:07:41: Those underdog stories which I always really, really like in sports were a bit lacking.

00:07:51: they happened occasionally but quite rarely though.

00:07:56: i think that was partly due to the route.

00:07:59: all-in-all A really cool tour!

00:08:02: It was fun.

00:08:03: Sure, that factor is always there but as long as Pogacar rides in this form we won't see that kind of huge suspense.

00:08:13: Somehow you've gotten used to it because the biggest thing is overall victory.

00:08:18: But if he's in this farm at end then really great atmosphere just wont come about anymore.

00:08:26: Yes I have to consider even though We are not really talking about the general classification anymore.

00:08:33: It is still a tour that offered an incredible amount at the end of day and That's why my overall conclusion actually very, very positive.

00:08:41: Shall we dive into categories?

00:08:44: Definitely I am ready.

00:08:46: Then let go!

00:08:47: We came up with five And will start with category number one Surprise Of The Tour.

00:08:56: You can Start With Your Surprise.

00:08:59: I get to start.

00:09:00: I picked out a few things that might not be so obvious and So, i am going with.

00:09:06: Mauro Schmidt the Swiss rider really impressed me because these are exactly The stories that get told at the tour.

00:09:14: We have one who worked as a car mechanic for his parents And wasn't the big youth talent already?

00:09:21: someone like Mark Hershey For example was much more prominent and Sensational this year for Jacob Alula If you look at what he still has with the team, with Ben O'Connor as captain Michael Matthews as sprinter.

00:09:37: He actually does everything for them!

00:09:39: He takes a stage win in a breakaway sprint to second place behind Jasper Philipsen and another stage... ...and finishes second again on a tough mountain stage behind Richard Carapaz.

00:09:52: Well it doesn't get much better than that And he was extremely fun to watch.

00:09:57: Yes, one of the very few underdog stories that was actually Mauro Schmeer.

00:10:02: So good big I can agree with it.

00:10:05: What is your surprise?

00:10:07: yes my surprises Not an underdog.

00:10:11: yeah well You definitely Definitely can't say that.

00:10:16: but Remco even appels performance in The High Mountains.

00:10:20: Wow, honestly I didn't see that coming.

00:10:23: I mean after past experiences.

00:10:26: and then we saw the tourmalette relatively early on And i thought wow will the plan to get Evernipole On The Podium actually work?

00:10:37: After those sequences at the start where he really had trouble on almost every climb Whenever things got intense...I thought to myself..Wow!

00:10:47: He can ride & gain all time he wants.

00:10:50: He will have to do it on these last three Alpine stages, which are written Thursday Friday Saturday and after that you have no chance.

00:11:01: You saw it today trying to set things right.

00:11:04: I could not have imagined That he would keep up in the high mountains The way he did!

00:11:13: Yes, he lost four kilos.

00:11:22: That was always said publicly.

00:11:24: Ralph never confirmed that exactly but He hinted at it himself.

00:11:29: and what does that actually mean?

00:11:31: Does that automatically mean hey I lose four kilos And can then basically ride along in the high mountains with ease

00:11:39: if you keep up that performance?

00:11:40: yes

00:11:41: Yes, and he did just that.

00:11:43: and this whole training plan taking him out of the calendar Extremely early not letting him race anymore comes with an absolute risk and that could have really blown up in his face, but it paid off completely.

00:11:57: The team as well.

00:11:58: Ralph mentioned yesterday too about Gils who kept getting better Hintley Who kept getting towards the end.

00:12:04: think back to beginning two.

00:12:06: we also received many messages from you listeners.

00:12:10: I could totally understand That.

00:12:12: hey what is going on?

00:12:13: With a team?

00:12:14: they weren't present at all In the beginning But It was truly strategic master planning with an Evernepole who then finished it off in the end and I wouldn't have thought he was that strong on high mountains.

00:12:27: And you have to say, Evernipole is positioning himself for a Tour de France victory!

00:12:33: We all do not know how much longer Pogaccia will keep going.

00:12:36: He has often flirted saying It's possible i'll stop relatively early.

00:12:41: You see there only one year between two of them.

00:12:44: Ralph also said repeatedly In recent years when someone is so successful, early a feeling of saturation can eventually arise without him knowing any details.

00:12:56: but Pogacar says it himself and wouldn't surprise me if in two years after the Olympics he's missing.

00:13:03: He said hey I've won Tour de France six or seven times now on par with the greats from a sixth.

00:13:12: Tour de Frans win would be the record holder.

00:13:16: And if he says early on, I'm quitting you have to position yourself now and get ready.

00:13:22: Know what i need to win a tour de France like that.

00:13:26: And then even up all with that form in the high mountains With these time trial qualities We usually have two individual time trials and not this short team-time Trial which ultimately had no effect On The overall standings at All.

00:13:43: If he has two individual time trials, perhaps over longer distances that can ultimately be the foundation to simply hold his own in the high mountains.

00:13:53: In my opinion with that kind of performance in the High Mountains He is putting himself in a perfect position for a post-Pogacar era.

00:14:01: Yes definitely I think Pogacars still under contract until on twenty thirty but That doesn't mean he'll want To win the tour every single time until twenty thirty.

00:14:13: At some point he might get bored, just like the monuments.

00:14:16: He collects them once and then says I'm not coming back to those cycling classics.

00:14:22: Well or something happens.

00:14:23: we saw how quickly things can change And then he can't ride that tour.

00:14:27: so Yeah, Remcoe Venepal That's why it's a surprise for me right?

00:14:32: Let's move on to the disappointment of the tour.

00:14:35: i'll start this time.

00:14:37: I chose team net company inios.

00:14:39: Sure, the plan was to go on tour de France with Oskar Onli who finished fourth last year as captain.

00:14:48: He then dropped out about two weeks before start of his tour.

00:14:53: This team net company Ineos has a really high budget compared many other teams.

00:14:59: At the end Egan Bernal finished in twentieth place in general classification.

00:15:03: there are also great many prominent names involved and apart from the team time trial right at beginning I honestly barely even noticed this team.

00:15:14: And for a squad with such budget, With so many big name riders we are talking about the teams that absolutely dominated the twenty-tens.

00:15:24: They won the Tour de France seven times.

00:15:26: Sorry but that was honestly brutally disappointing For me.

00:15:31: That after Oscar Onle dropped out they apparently had no plan B at all It's a mystery to me

00:15:38: Absolutely.

00:15:39: They have created a brutally high bar with their successes even back when they were still called sky and following that up is tough but I can still understand it, i can say now we also need to keep an eye on the time.

00:15:56: We are already at the comfortable sixteen minutes.

00:16:00: Accordingly, there is not much time left.

00:16:02: That's why I will quickly move on to my next disappointment!

00:16:14: That one was last in the team standings this year, so... Last year we made sure he didn't push Florian Lipowitz off of the podium.

00:16:25: This time they were almost non-existent but actually still have at least if you look as irrelevant sites believe a reasonable budget.

00:16:35: They also still have Warren Barguilas.

00:16:37: their captain wanted to go more for stages.

00:16:39: breakaways Of course difficult and Also nothing against John Degenkolb who is still riding around there and feels like he's finishing his one hundred thousandth tour.

00:16:50: I have the utmost respect for that guy but... There was extremely little from their team, they are also very low in the world-tour ranking And if they keep going this way They even have to worry about not being a World Tour Team at some point.

00:17:04: That why my disappointment.

00:17:07: Well, Ralph said it.

00:17:09: Christian Proudhon says to teams like that hey sure you have the world tour license.

00:17:13: Yeah But if they don't have it anymore at some point then You're just not there any more because it's going to be difficult.

00:17:18: That way right.

00:17:20: third category is the best stage.

00:17:23: I chose number seventeen which Jasper Philipsen wins in the end.

00:17:27: That brings us full circle to what we saw earlier, van der Poel leads him out saving this Tour de France for his teammate.

00:17:36: why did I choose it?

00:17:38: This sport is so tightly scheduled!

00:17:41: It's so geared towards perfectionism every area.

00:17:46: Nothing is left to chance anymore.

00:17:49: and yet there are stages like these that are absolute chaos from the first-to-the last meter where even the protagonists cannot explain what happened in the

00:18:00: end.".

00:18:01: I find it cool because sport must always have a component.

00:18:05: especially in times of Pogacar when sport still keeps a component of unpredictability, people don't know how it will end.

00:18:14: That does the sport a world of

00:18:15: good.".

00:18:17: Yes!

00:18:17: It was cool stage and definitely fun for me at this.

00:18:20: fifteen to two before so-to speak that exactly we already touched on it.

00:18:26: The moment became clear that even a pole can handle mountains.

00:18:30: They really caused a stir at the front.

00:18:33: Wiesma actually wanted to try something, then Wingegaard crashes dramatically in the corner.

00:18:39: One of the absolute favorites is out and a short time later we see exactly The three people who end up on the podium alone.

00:18:46: At the front Pogi becomes a super domestique trying to pull the Toro along Ewen.

00:18:52: a pool Is the only one who can still keep up?

00:18:54: And yes, the rest his history.

00:18:56: as they say he wins this stage with A lot of elevation gain and a summit finish, from then on it was clear this could be something.

00:19:06: Right let's move onto the Tour de France moment!

00:19:09: You mentioned Fingert God's crash for Mare?

00:19:11: It is unfortunately an assault one too.

00:19:14: when I float in Lippewitz... Seeing him lying there during the time trial.

00:19:20: Wow, a little world of cycling collapsed inside me because despite all the fuss about this dual leadership topic we all know he actually doesn't like that and just wants to ride his bike.

00:19:33: And then such unrest inevitably arises also with statements from Evernipoll beforehand.

00:19:40: And he handled that with such composure, just like the way he moves on a bike.

00:19:47: He rode his Tour de France... The time trial was over.

00:19:51: He was doing extremely well and then there was always that.

00:19:55: that week those lipowitz stages were coming up.

00:19:57: They were on the cards.

00:19:59: they suit him.

00:20:00: That is exactly his profile, that is exactly what he can do.

00:20:03: And then you see one mistake going into that corner to fast a stupid crash and it is all over.

00:20:11: I felt so sorry for him and wow, i would have been curious to see how things will continue.

00:20:16: And yes!

00:20:18: I am also curious about the future.

00:20:22: Regarding the dual leadership, EFN-Apoll has really staked his claim.

00:20:25: now if he stays fit or healthy there won't be much room for debate on team leader role next year.

00:20:34: at least the start of the Tour de France with a performance like that, two stage wins and overall result.

00:20:42: I think it will be really hard for Florian to reach their dual leadership level again but hey!

00:20:49: It is only his second Tour De France ever.

00:20:52: let him maybe ride a Vuelta or Giro as team leader And also here perhaps position him after Tadeh Pogacar.

00:21:04: Super exciting, super interesting and a real shame how the tour ultimately turned out for him.

00:21:11: What is your moment of the Tour?

00:21:12: I have something a bit more cheerful, though it's also a bit of mixed bag.

00:21:17: I have Torstein-Tran or Thorsten Train or Torstein Tran.

00:21:23: however you want to pronounce it?

00:21:24: No!

00:21:25: Well the Norwegian...

00:21:27: To me they say we have to watch time and now twenty five pronunciations from Torsten Tran to get

00:21:33: through here We could take a look at who had more speaking time in the end.

00:21:36: right

00:21:37: Yeah okay

00:21:39: No, well Torstein Train has to abandon the tour after sensationally riding into The Yellow Jersey beforehand.

00:21:47: Uno X Mobility ,the Norwegian team brought so much joy and yes he had a personal story of suffering.

00:21:55: takes this yellow jersey then crashes in front of him on a descent day later.

00:22:02: That was when Pogaccio attacked at the front again and would have taken it from him anyway, but of course very dramatic that a man in yellow even had to drop out on that day or rather just fought his way till he finished.

00:22:15: And then the tour is over for him!

00:22:18: Well you said it as super tour de France for Norway?

00:22:22: If you compare Italy with autostage win, France without autostagewin, Spain without autastagewen those are three countries which host The three grand tours, I do not know if that has ever happened before but i find it extremely intense.

00:22:36: We don't even need to talk about Germany anymore!

00:22:39: It's been five years since the last german stage win.

00:22:43: But anyway we are watching this time... That shouldn't be today topic right?

00:22:49: Last category get rid of it.

00:22:52: I'll keep it brief, i have two things.

00:22:54: The new rule for the team time trial...I mean..i don't think we will see team-time trials that often in coming years anyway but i think its completely idiotic To me.

00:23:03: ,that has nothing to do with Team Time Trialing.

00:23:08: Just take first three for standings Then is a team-Time Trial.

00:23:13: But way was implemented No!

00:23:15: It didn't grab at all.

00:23:17: And I also didn't think the layout at the end was that cool, That we saw those three Alpine stages all in a row.

00:23:24: At The very End!

00:23:28: For

00:23:34: me, it's I wrote a bit polemically flat stages.

00:23:47: I meant more specifically the flat stages in this tour because they were really characterized by The fact that up front there was a price troffer the Frenchman mostly alone sometimes in a pair And you didn't even get the feeling that he was getting away at all.

00:24:04: It was always one minute two minutes and then the end There was a sprint.

00:24:08: you have to come up with something You've already discussed.

00:24:13: Maybe you can create more incentives, add small hills bonus prints.

00:24:18: There is this Red Bull Bonus Time kilometer thing at the Jiro which they tried out.

00:24:26: I don't know if that's the best way but You have to do something.

00:24:29: maybe get some excitement back in there other than last three minutes of stage

00:24:34: Exactly.

00:24:35: I will discuss that with Ralph, i have a small idea but let's not make big deal out of it right?

00:24:41: Those were our five categories and now for you That was the tour my dear cobinion Yes, i'm up again.

00:24:48: tomorrow there will be the review with ralph tank just as he are used to.

00:24:53: Thank you so much cobinian for them.

00:24:56: As always great collaboration during this Tour de France And with that I will send you off on your tour vacation.

00:25:04: But hey, we work at the same company.

00:25:07: Cobinion will not be off until next July now.

00:25:11: That would be nice.

00:25:12: I think We should actually introduce that working for one month and then having eleven months of.

00:25:17: Then i could do more even more sports myself.

00:25:20: You know you know our bosses are listening in.

00:25:22: yes when is The Iron Man In Hawaii?

00:25:24: When Is That Coming Up?

00:25:25: October tenth, full.

00:25:27: I still have a bit left but the flights are booked.

00:25:30: I am ready and there is still lot of work to do until then

00:25:36: Exactly!

00:25:37: Then i'm keeping my fingers crossed for you For that.

00:25:40: As said thanks again for your support during tour de France as well.

00:25:44: You will hear me and Ralph Denk tomorrow.

00:25:47: And Kobinian you may now say goodbye to our listeners.

00:25:51: Yes, thank you very much for listening.

00:25:54: It was a pleasure as always and hopefully until next year stay with us.

00:26:18: Thanks for listening and see you in the next episode.